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Re: Autococker

Post by THE JEW (RaVeN) »

How to adjust the stock LPR:

The stock lpr is adjustable (just a bit more involved). Remove the brass fitting on the end of the lpr (the part that screws in the front block) and there will be a an adjuster inside that uses a flat head screwdriver. Counter clockwise will turn up the pressure.

http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/2683707-post10.html

How to use gauges from Princess Auto:

I bought 0-300 psi and 0-600 psi liquid filled gauges from Princess Auto. They were 1/4" NPT input but I just used a reducer to 1/8" NPT.

http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/ask- ... ester.html
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Re: Autococker

Post by THE JEW (RaVeN) »

List of Autocockers:

125 Customs Ultralite Cocker (limited)
32* 32* Prococker
32* 32* vert feed
32* rf (three slots on bottom)
32* Vert feed (triangle side)

Aaron K. Alexander Custom
Action Markers Illusion
Action Markers Illusion Pro
Action Markers Illusion Pro Stockclass
Action Markers Illusion Shatner edition
Advanced Concepts Kits
AIM AIM04 Seth
AIM AIM17 Swift
AIM AIM18+ Crow
AIM AIM21 Eagle
Air Challenger M-1
AKA Black Widow
AKA Merlin
AKA Merlin Roundbody
AKA VLM
AKA VLM Factory milled
Alien Airworx
ANS ANS LE Gen X
ANS ANS Super X
ANS Gen X
ANS Gen X 3
ANS Gen X 4
ANS Gen X 5
ANS GXE
ANS X-5E
ANS Skanline I-Rokz
APL Commemorative

BBT Stage 1
BBT Stage 2
BBT Stage 3
BBT westwood
Belsales Evo X
Belsales Evolution
Belsales Evolution Jetstream
Belsales Evolution Supernova
Belsales Evolution XE
Belsales Last of the Millennium
Belsales Predator
Biohazard Biohazard
Bob Long autococker
Bob Long Signature Series
Bonebrake Bonebrake Pro Series
Bonebrake Custom
Boston Paintball Supply Express
Boston Paintball Supply twister (clamshell/sunrise)
Boston Paintball Supply Twister (lite)
Boston Paintball Supply twister (straight)
Brad Nestle (PBMAXX, Olympic) custom
Brad Nestle (PBMAXX, Olympic) Sniper SHO
Brian Ward (C&W paintball) Custom
Bulldog Paintball Bulldog Cocker
Bullseye Colossal
Bullseye custom
Bullseye Titan

Carter Custom
Carter Sniper
CCM CCM Merlin
CCM J2
CCM Series 5
CCM Series 6
CCM Ss-25
Centerflag Centerflag Series
Check-it Dragon
Check-it Pro Series
Chris Cole Honeycomb
Chris Cole Sig Series
Chris Cole Voodoo
Cooper T Imp kit sniper converison

Dan Debone Custom
David Slane (Turtles Toybox) Custom
David Slane (Turtles Toybox) Twin Ram conversion
Demon Guns (Mark Jacobs) Custom
DFOX Apex type II
Dirk Gadberry (Innovative Marketing) Custom
Disruptive Pro Cut
Disruptive Ultimate Disruptor
Dive Rat (?) Custom
Doc Nickel Custom
Doc Nickel Fastback
Doc Nickel Vee Twin
Dragon Designs Wraith
Dragun Dragonfly LCD
Dragun Dragonfly LED
Dragun Drallion
Dye Dye
Dye Reflex
Dye Ultralite

Eaton Ripper
Eaton/White Wolf Ripper (convertible)
Eclipse Aurora
Eclipse DC1
Eclipse DC2
Eclipse Splash
Eclipse Splash STO
Eclipse Factory series
Eclipse FT series
Eclipse Nexus
Eclipse Pro-series
Eyeball Engeineering Eyeball

Fear Factory Custom
Fireball Mountain apache
Fireball Mountain blank
Fireball Mountain cobra
Fireball Mountain Gothic (spiked)
Fireball Mountain Gothic (spiked, milled through)
Fireball Mountain Gothic (unspiked)
Fireball Mountain Gothic (unspiked, milled through)
Fireball Mountain graveyard
Fireball Mountain half assed
Fireball Mountain original
Fireball Mountain rayzor
Fireball Mountain razor
Fireball Mountain spiderweb
Fireball Mountain teardrop
Fireball Mountain vampyre
Fireball Mountain voodoo
Flag station Mongoose
Florida Paintball Center (John Gross) Custom
Folda Magic
Folda MF-1
Folda MF-2
Freeflow (Pro Paintball) Boxxer
Freeflow (Pro Paintball) Custom
Freeflow (Pro Paintball) Fulcrum
Freeflow (Pro Paintball) Lotus
Freeflow (Pro Paintball) Millinium
Freeflow (Pro Paintball) Rythem

Hybrid technologies Quest
Hybrid technologies Rival

I&I Sports Super cocker

Jack Withers Custom
Jackal Custom
Jackal Phase 2
Jackal Phase 3
Jackal RDL
Jay Wonderly (PB Sports) Custom
JCM custom
JMJ concepts Custom
JMJ concepts Kryptonite
JMJ concepts Kryptonite F-5
JMJ concepts Kryptonite F-5 Morlock
JMJ concepts Merlin Featherlite

Kapp Flame
Kapp Kapp
Kapp KXS
KAPP Razorback
KAPP Reflex
Ken C Catapult
KPCS Custom
KPCS G-10
KPCS Ma Deuce
KPCS Scout
KPCS Ma Deuce A
Krusher paintball Krusher
Krusher paintball Krusher lite

Mac Dev Sonic
Mac Dev Sonic E-Racer
Mad Cocker Darkside
Mag MagRacer
Martin Paintball MiniBlock
Meteor Jetstream
Meteor Meteor
MF2 Micrococker
Mikes Custom Paintball Sin
Mikes Custom Paintball X-treme
Murder Inc MI Orracle

Odyssey O3M
OTP G-1

P&P Cold Fusion
P&P Cold Fusion Uprising
P&P E series Supercocker
P&P E series Supercocker LE
P&P LE Super
P&P Supercocker
P&P Custom
Paintball and More Awful Cocker
Paintball Headquarters Custom
Paintball Inc/Shocktech Vortex
Paintball Paradise Super Sniper
Palmer Custom
Palmer sleeper
Palmer Ultra Mini Cocker w/ Full cosmetics
Palmer Ultra Mini Cocker
PBX PBX autorocker
PGI Firestorm
PGI Osiris
PMS Mark 1
PMS Mark 2
PMS Mark 3
Powerlyte FON/PL Merlin
Powerlyte Hybrid
Psycho Ballistics Lightning
Psycho Ballistics Superbolt
Psycho Sports Custom
PTP F/x Micrococker
PTP F/x Sleeper
PTP F/x STO
PTP F/x Autococker Competition
Punisher Custom

Racegun Halfblock
Revelation Tribulation
Rex Paintball M-1
Rex Paintball M-2
Robert Long Delrin
Robert Long Turtlecocker
Rocky Mountain Paintball Custom
Roughneck Demonic
Rudy Dean Rudy V1
Rudy Dean Rudy V2
Rudy Dean Rudy V3
RX paintball RX-5

Sandridge F-5 Tiny Tornado
Sandridge Sandridge
Sandridge Custom
Shocktech Hookups V1
Shocktech Hookups V2
Shocktech SFL 2000
Shocktech SFL 2001
Shocktech SFL 2002
Shocktech SFL 2003
Shocktech SFL Aftershock series
Shocktech SFL Cash Money series
Shocktech SFL Tremor series
Spanky/Ontario Paintball Cobra
Spanky/Ontario Paintball Cobra Turbocharged
Spanky/Ontario Paintball Custom
Spanky/Ontario Paintball Fatboy Graveyard
Spanky/Ontario Paintball Fatboy series
Spanky/Ontario Paintball Fishbone
Spanky/Ontario Paintball Fishbone Turbocharged
Spanky/Ontario Paintball Yin yang
Spanky/Ontario Paintball Yin yang Turbocharged
Spanky/Ontario Paintball yin yang/fishbone combo
Spanky/Ontario Paintball Warped Monkey II
Spanky/Ontario Paintball Warped Monkey
Spearhead Spearhead
Splat Attack Revenge V1
Splat Attack Revenge V2
Splat Attack Revenge V2 LE
Splat Attack Revenge V3
Swift Line (custom) Skip Swift
Syndicate Jinx
System -X autococker
System -X Special edition type X
System -X Type X
System -X Type Z
System -X Vengance
System -X Vengance 2.0
System -X Vengance 4.0
System -X Vengance Attitude
System -X Xonik

Tarantula Custom
TASO Taso Signature Series
TCP Xtreme Custom
TCP Xtreme TCP Xtreme
TCP Xtreme TCP Xtreme Ultralite
Tri State Twister Custom
Tx Tuning Sledgehammer

Vortex Paintball Vortex
Vu Hoang Custom

Warhammer Custom
Warped sportz Dark (dark body)
Warped sportz Dark (freeflow body)
Warped sportz Dark (P&P body)
Warped sportz Dark (Works body)
Warped sportz LA Z-force
Western Paintball Inc Western Series
WGP 2000 Autococker
WGP 2k+ STO
WGP 97 Autococker
WGP 97 STO
WGP 98 Autococker
WGP 98 STO
WGP 98 STO Limited edition
WGP 99 STO
WGP 99 STO Mini
WGP Black Magic
WGP Black Magic (First run/sometimes called texas storm)
WGP Black Magic 2005
WGP Body Kits (multiple versions)
WGP BOSS
WGP Flatline
WGP Jeff Orr Signature Blackout
WGP Jeff Orr Signature series V1
WGP Jeff Orr Signature series V2
WGP Jeff Orr Signature series V3
WGP Jeff Orr Signature series X-out
WGP Karnivor
WGP Karnivor Midblock Sniper
WGP Minicocker
WGP Nex (never marketed by WGP)
WGP Nightcast
WGP Orracle
WGP outkast
WGP Prostock
WGP Sniper 1
WGP Sniper 1 (62cal)
WGP Sniper 2
WGP Sniper 3
WGP SR
WGP Superstock
WGP Trilogy
WGP Trilogy Pro
WGP Trilogy Tactical
WGP Vertibrate
WGP Vertibrate Warp feed
WGP VF Tactical
WGP Worrlock
Whitewolf Custom
Wildside Custom
Wildside Wildfire
Works Works
Works/AKA Works (merlin)

X-treme Paintball JRX

319

http://customcockers.com/forum/showthre ... he-(almost)-complete-(getting-there)-list-(well-its-long)-of-cockers
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Re: Autococker

Post by THE JEW (RaVeN) »

People who still time 'cockers for you:
http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/palm ... ost2699721
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Re: Autococker

Post by THE JEW (RaVeN) »

Reinventing the cocker sear:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/9013/mes ... bout+time-

Longtime Guild readers will know that I'm a big fan of the AutoCocker, in no small part because it's endlessly customizable and personalizable. They're fun to build, fun to tinker with, fun to play with.

However, while we've modified, altered and/or tweaked damn near every part of the gun, one thing has stayed surprisingly unchanged- the sear.

Yes, companies have made some out of tool steel using high-precision wire EDM, and others have added little wheels to reduce some of the sliding friction, but none that I know of actually changed the geometry.

The 'Cocker sear is, of course, a direct decendant of the Sniper sear, which was in turn a direct decendant of the Sheridan PGP sear, which itself was basically the exact same sear that Benjamin-Sheridan was using on their pellet pistols sixty years ago.

By accident or design, the old pellet pistols had a very short hammer travel- in other words, when the sear released the hammer from the cocked position, it didn't travel very far before it contacted the valve stem. This short travel and the high chamber pressures (from unregulated CO2) required an extremely stiff mainspring- far stiffer than anything most paintballers are used to today.

That heavy spring got carried over to the P-series brass paintball guns (which used a valvetrain virtually identical to the old pellet guns) and later still, over the the early Snipers.

The first three or four years of Sniper and Sniper-II production essentially used a turned-down PGP valve, what was basically a PGP hammer that had been drilled for a cocking rod, and a PGP mainspring. Cocking actions were fairly stiff, and trigger pulls kinda heavy- neither of which were a problem in games where a "massive firefight" might involve upwards of twenty shots.

The advent of the AutoCocker required a change- the cocking mechanism in those early days was unreliable, which was made even worse by the high pressures needed to cock that heavy mainspring.

The fix was to convert over to springs out of the most common style of marker available at the time, a Nelson based gun. A dozen manufacturers made extensive kits of color-coded springs for Nelson guns, since in many cases you had to swap springs in order to chronograph the marker.

A modded hammer and a new rear plug, and your 'Cocker could use far lighter Nelson springs. That eased the pressures needed on the cocking pneumatics, lightened the trigger pull, and made it less likely to chop a ball. Eventually WGP switched over to using those springs from the factory, and all was well.

Except no one apparently ever thought to alter the hammer travel.

No matter the age of the 'Cocker, the sear catches the hammer at about the same place- which is about the same place as it was back in the PGP days.

Why is that an issue? Easy- give the hammer more time/distance to accelerate, the greater the impact it'll have on the valve for the same spring tension.

All else being equal- same hammer weight, same spring tension, same valve specs, same air pressure, etc.- if a the hammer started from, just as an example, one inch from the valve instead of just half an inch from the valve, you'd get a higher velocity.

Or, in our fixed-max-velocity world, that means you can back off the mainspring, or make a lighter hammer, or reduce your inline pressure, or whatever.

I've been thinking about this for years- I can't count the number of 'Cockers I've built where I had to, in my opinion, "band-aid" the valvetrain because of this. I've done experiments and modded parts... I've got a junkbox full of bits.

But recently, I was dealing with a customer's gun, a scratchbuilt based off an old 2004 Prostock body, and I was getting it set up with an AKA Tornado valve. I have my little tricks for squeezing a max shot count out of a good LP setup, and yet again, I was annoyed with the heavy springs I had to pile in there in order to get a decent velocity- especially with the common inserted barrels we're all but forced to use these days, thanks to the tiny paint. (A Freak insert, for example, is only a little over 5" long- that's a really short barrel.)

As I said, I've done some experiments over the years, so I decided I'd do one up right. In this case, I'd simply make a sear approximately 1/8" longer than factory.



That might not sound like much, but it's over 30% more than stock. I'd have gone a bit further, but too much and it starts making the trigger stiffer, since the leverage from the sear pivot changes.

I looked at that, and wondered if I couldn't move the pivot point as well, to help keep the overall geometry roughly the same. More on that in a minute.

Now, making a new sear is nothing particularly difficult, though unlike the typical aluminum or brass part we often deal with, there's the added steps of hardening and grinding. It also doesn't have to be particularly precise- the sear lug on the hammer is adjustable, so as long as we're close into the ballpark, we're fine.

I started with a chunk of 1/2" O1 steel. O1 is oil-hardening tool steel, and supplied in an annealed state for easy machining.



I didn't have any flatbar so I had to cut it from round, but that was an easy job. And here's a good trick for milling something fairly tough when it's hanging out of the vise by a bit:



That fixture is a heavy-duty work stop I picked up a few years ago at a guy's garage sale. It's almost certainly shop-made, and quite rigid- in this case, rigid enough to back up a part being cut. I tightened the stop rod against the part somewhat firmly- it may have pushed the work out of line slightly, but as the finished piece will be ground to size later, a minor difference in thickness wasn't going to be a problem.

After cutting one side, flip and do the other:



After that, it was a simple matter of coloring the cut face with a Sharpie, scribing part of a standard sear, shifting it over about 1/8", and scribing the rest.



While I could have milled the waste off, it would have been a tricky part to hold, and would likely have vibrated or chattered. Instead, I simply ground the bulk away with a bench grinder. (Of course, keeping it cool lest I accidentally harden a spot or two.)



Hacksaw it off...



And clean up the rest on the grinder again.





Now we go over to the die filer- it's basically a heavy-duty jigsaw that holds a file instead of a teeny saw blade. The table is adjustable for tilt and pitch, so I can adjust it with a simple square, to give me a near-perfectly square cut on the edges.



It's slow going, but eventually we sneak up on the scribe lines.



After a few comparisons with the original, and then more filing, we're left with a copy of the real thing, just slightly longer.



Now, I did come up with a way I could alter the pivot point slightly, without leaving an empty original hole in the grip frame: Mill out the 1/8" original to 3/16", but offset the new hole.



Technically that only moves our pivot point by 1/32", but then again, it doesn't necessarily have to move much. The idea is to keep the contact point on the trigger in the same place, and just move the rear "hook" end of the sear back by about 1/8". I haven't done the math yet, but generally speaking, if the pivot point were in the center of the sear, it would only have to move rearward by 1/16" in order to keep the ratio of the front and rear halves of the sear the same.

Roughly speaking.

Anyway, once I had the grip drilled, I marked the location on the new sear and drilled it to match.



And now, we've got something we can test. It's not hardened yet, but it'll hold up just fine for limited testing.



The WGP swing-trigger frame I'm working with, uses a set-screw to retain the pivot pin, so I don't have to worry about driving it in and out. The screw now bears on the pin off to one side, but that's more than sufficient to lock it into place.



At this point the sear now holds the hammer about 1/8" further back than stock- the scribe line in the Sharpie ink shows the back edge of the stock sear:



Now, the whole gun is still being fitted and tested, but the valvetrain is pretty well set. I was having issues with a used Mini-Rock I got off of MCB (he neglected to tell me it was missing the reg seal, for example ) but i could still pop a little paint through it out the back door.

Switching between sears made a significant difference in velocity- I hadn't tuned it yet, but with no change other than the sear, there was an easy (estimated) 100 fps difference. From "way too low" bloopers to "that's pretty close" velocity.

As soon as I cure the other unpicked nits, I'll do a proper test and record velocities, but as it was, I was dealing with a leaky bottomline and a leaky/inconsistent LPR.

Regardless, I knew it worked, at least to some degree. So it was time to finish it- that way I wouldn't have to worry about damaging it in later testing. (It'd already gotten a slight scar from the sear lug, just in some brief testing.)

I drilled a couple of holes to lighten it a bit...



And chamfered 'em a little.



Then, a couple of propane torches to get it yellow-hot...



... And a dunk in some oil to harden it.



A quick (and kinda rough "by eye") temper to get to down from "glass hard" to somewhere around Rockwell 55C or so...



And a final run through the surface grinder to smooth, square and true it:



Note the old trick there: For small parts that might not have enough "grip" to the magnet on their own, a couple of radius gauges (or other wide, flat steel pieces)along with it helps hold everything in place.



Purty.

Break the sharp edges slightly with a fine stone in a Dremel, and it's done- shown here compared to the original sear.



Lightly oiled and installed:



Now, in direct comparison with an unmodified frame, you can see the sear point is noticibly further rearward. I wasn't going for an exact number (IE, exactly 0.125" or whatever) at least not on this one, but it is roughly an eighth-inch extra.



Here's a composite shot comparing it to the body, hammer and sear:



The top one is the (barely visible) unmodified chrome frame, the lower is the blue frame with the custom sear. It's not quite perfect, but I tried to hold the grip frames in the correct fore/aft alignment to the body.

And finally, here's some precise figures:

Uncocked, the rod sticks out 0.716". In this state, the hammer is resting on, but not compressing, the valve stem.



Using the unmodded chrome frame, when cocked, the rod sticks out 0.977".



And using the blue modded-sear frame, the rod sticks out 1.097".



Subtract the uncocked/at-rest number and we have a stock hammer travel of 0.261", and a modded hammer travel of 0.381", a difference of 0.120", or pretty darn close to a full third more travel than stock.

So, all that just to keep from having to turn the adjuster in a tad more?

Yep. I think it'll be worth it.

Doc.
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Re: Autococker

Post by THE JEW (RaVeN) »

Make an autococker open bolt:

I had an idea a while ago for a simple pneumatic-trigger mod for a cocker that did not require any new parts, or modifications.

Basically:
1- Swap the ram hoses
2- Remove the sear
3- Remove hammer spring
4- Replace cocking pin with a threaded rod, attached to the backblock with 2 nuts, space apart so it has 1/4" of slack.

Pulling the trigger ONLY actuates the stock 3way, which controls the ram, and uses the backblock to THROW the hammer at the pinvalve.

The "THROW" part is the most critical. You want the ram to push the hammer MOST of the way towards the valve, but stop, and let inertia carry the hammer the remaining 1/4". This way, you do not have to worry about DWELL, since the hammer will reset itself as normal.

Should double the firing speed of a cocker, without having to worry about timing, or other nonesense, for practically nothing since it makes use of all the stock parts. (except for a $1 threaded rod, and nuts).

nick

http://www.network54.com/Forum/9013/mes ... te+version
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Re: Autococker

Post by THE JEW (RaVeN) »

Sweet spotting an autococker:

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=3005785

I havent seen a direct how too on this and as Sweetspotting should be common knowledge on all poppets, this should be posted.


I would also like to note this is useful on may different poppets, Intimidators, Egos, aliens,Vikings, excals, ect, (if it has a hammer and a poppet then this will most likely work for you as there are some exceptions) Just translate the Dwell to Valve spring tension and IVG ito LPR pressure.

And before we begin,

First- Become acquainted with your gun, Understand what parts do what,

second- Understand how your regulator works, Know and understand how to adjust its pressure.


lets begin!


supplies, a cocker!

when adjusting the velocity there are two major points of adjustment,

one the main hammer spring and the IVG (internal velocity governor) sit inside the gun here

and your inline vertical regulator

begin by taking out the cocking rod by screwing it counter clockwise from the gun,

then look at your IVG, make sure there is at least 2-3 sets of threads showing while it is screwed into the gun. if it isnt, screw it in with a 3/16th hex key.

now before you air up your gun, you need to Zero out the regulator,

keep in mind there are different types of regulators and I am using WGP's Black magic inline regulator.

Now Adjust the inline regulator to the point that it has been zero'd out, as ther should be no pressure coming out of it. with the Black magic reg, n order to zero out the output pressure you need to screw in the set screw all the way in (clockwise)

ok now we need our air source.

screw in your air tank while the gun is cocked.


now comes the time consuming part,
take your paint, hex keys and chronograph and get to a distant location where no one can get hit by the paintballs you are about to shoot. (mask recommended)


then slowly turn up the inline regulators pressure about half of a turn while shooting about 5 balls of paint between each shot and reading them on your chronograph.

as you slowly turn up the regulator (and continuing to shoot paint, youll notice that your velocity begins to increase) youll eventually reach a point where the velocity with stop increasing and actually decrease and loose a little consistancy. this spot is known as the cockers "sweet spot." as you you screw in the IVG you'll notice the "sweetspot" sets itself at a Higher pressure. This is due to the balance of the poppet being held shut by air pressure behind it, and actual force the hammer is exerting on the poppet. When you reach this point turn down the pressure just a bit, (10 or so PSI) and use your IVG to set your velocity to field limits.

complete! now the cocker shoots tits and kittens. see how happy he is.


Quote:
http://www.endlesspb.com/tech/sweetspot.html
Sweet spotting the regulator is not a quick process, but it is easy at least, and integral to an Autococker running at its most efficient. It is time consuming, and requires a good deal of air, and some paint. You also need a chronograph (those handheld radar chronographs are great for this)

The relationship between an Autococker's input pressure and velocity is in the shape of a bell curve. This means that as pressure goes up, so does velocity, but only to a point. There is a point where any more input pressure results in a lower velocity. This is because the excess pressure is causing the valve to shut prematurely, stifling velocity.

Start by turning your inline regulator all the way down to zero psi, also set your velocity adjuster at two turns in from all the way out. Now, increase your pressure slowly while shooting the marker over the chronograph. Adjust your pressure 25 psi at a time, and take five shots (give or take) over the chronograph to establish a velocity at that pressure. Continue this process until the velocity peaks, which is when any increase in pressure will result in a decrease of velocity. This point varies for every marker and is the most efficient pressure setting for your spring set. When the velocity drops, start lowering the pressure (5 psi at a time). The velocity should start to go up again. Gently nudge the pressure lower and lower (using those small increments) until any change, be it up or down, results in a lower velocity.

Now that the regulator is sweet spotted, you need to adjust the velocity adjuster to reach your desired velocity. With any luck, the regulator will sweet spot right around 290 fps. Try not to turn the velocity adjuster in more than half way, as it tends to put too much stress on the spring.
and here,

Quote:
http://www.cockertech.com/joomla158/...achowsweetspot
How to Sweetspot your regulator for maximum efficiency

You're all happy because you've got your $1k+ autococker and your fancy nitrogen tank, but you're only getting 500 shots per fill off of an 88ci/4500 psi tank. Whats wrong? Horrible gas efficiency. This should help you set up your regulator to use the most efficient amount of gas to fire and use the gun.

First thing that you will need to do is get access to a chronograph. Without one, sweetspotting is pointless and nearly impossible. The easiest thing to do would be go to your local field on an open play day and sit out a game to sweet spot. Or buy a Radarchron for $100 if you play a lot of backyard games. Anyhow, begin by filling your gas up all the way, filling your hopper, and lower your velocity adjuster (behind the cocking rod in the gun) to almost all the way out, maybe a little more toward the middle of that area. Next, keep lowering the pressure on your regulator until the gun stops cycling and firing reliably. You should be firing in the low 100's fps or a little over. Now, and this is where patience comes in, slowly begin to increase the pressure in your regulator. On the stock inline WGP, you increase the pressure by backing out the screw, or turning it counterclockwise. Shoot three shots over the chrono, and remember the speeds. Now, increase the pressure again. Keep doing this until the velocity of the paintballs won't go any higher. This is the
sweetspot of your reg, where it will use gas most efficiently.

You should end up in the high 200's range. Once your regulator is at it's sweet spot, use the velocity adjuster in the gun to get your gun firing at field limits. You will now have the best gas efficiency and hopefully a slightly more constant shot.

To sweetspot your pneumatic regulator for optimum efficiency, the task is a bit simpler. Turn the reg down so that the ram barely moves. Now, pull the trigger (preferrably have no paintballs in your gun) and slowly turn up the pressure on your regulator. Look down the feed tube and keep increasing the pressure until the bolt completely clears the breach, ie the tip of the bolt is not obstructing the feed tube. Increase the pressure just a bit more (1/8 to 1/4 turn for those of you with externally adjustable regs) and you're done. You're using just enough gas to cycle but enough to make sure that your gun always fully cycles.


Lower pressure does NOT mean more shots per tank. You can fire a ball with 400 psi and X volume of air, or 200 psi, but you'd need twice the air. The efficiency in the valve is determined by how well the valve delivers air to the ball. Typically, it is more efficient to run a lower dwell and higher pressure. In my 400 vs. 200 example, you'd have a shorter dwell time with the 400 psi air than at 200 psi.

The higher you run the pressure, the less volume needed, but also the more force needed to open the valve (because there is more force pushing it closed). This, as I understand it, is why you sweetspot the regulator, to find the perfect balance for your valve, in your cocker, with your spring set up and your paint/barrel.

Also, as an example, I'd like to point out the shocker 4x4 (shoebox) that ran at 180 psi, but got horrible efficiency, vs. cockers running into the 400's that can get nearly a case off a 68/4500. There is also the MacDev droid that is pretty efficient for a spool valve at a low pressure, so you cannot determine efficiency based on operating pressure.
Exactly.
To add a bit more...
Not all valves are created equal.
As far as autocockers go, in my experience most valves operate best in the 300-400 psi range. However, there are low pressure valves (AKA Tornado, Maddman rocket) that operate best at about 200 psi (assuming you're using the right springs). There are others that claim to be 'low pressure' valves, but the only way to know for sure is by sweetspotting.
Also, Minimag3 is correct. The sweetspotting process is will result in the lightest mainspring/IVG setting given your current setup (valve, valve spring, hammer).
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Re: Autococker

Post by THE JEW (RaVeN) »

Flash guide to tuning a 'cocker.
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Re: Autococker

Post by THE JEW (RaVeN) »

Guide to Jeff Orr Limited Edition (JOLE) cocker:

"all different ways to say it.

there was a V1/v2/v3 and 10 v3s done slightly diff than original batch of v3s.

there is also the midblock Karni pump that wasn't technically a JOLE but some still call it that.

there is also the Blackout which wasn't a JOLE but was basically the predecessor for them as they were nearly identical besides for milling differences. The blackout was the last WGP cocker done while WGP was still based out of its original Cali location with the original employees. Everything after that was the new WGP location in Cali(short time) and then at JT sports in Arkansas."

www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/wgp/241943- ... rkers.html
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Re: Autococker

Post by THE JEW (RaVeN) »

Info on rebuilding stock WGP rams.

http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/wgp/ ... p-ram.html

Riddler asked me to check dimensions on the older and newer ram bumpers for compatibility. It's good information so I thought I would post it in this thread for you guys.

Checked dimensions on a newer (aluminum two piece, front and back) rams and older (3 piece, front, body and back) rams.

_______
On the old 3 piece rams:
The small bumpers are perfect replacements for the small bumpers on the older ram, both are right at .25 inches.
Side profile width of each is .125.

I also have larger urethane seals which I am now thinking replace the black seal at the back of the older rams. Both are .355 inches.

Side profile width of both the black seal and the larger urethane replacement are both .125. There is more drag on the older ram shaft when I pulled and pushed the shaft with my hand after replacing the older black seal with a urethane seal and I haven't tested them with air so keep both of these points in mind.
______

On the newer 2 piece rams, the 2 bumpers are .29 outer diameters each. If you replace these with the .355 bumpers they seem to still be slightly smaller in OD than the oring (.375-.380) and brass piece (.37) that the oring sits in.

Side profile width is .115 on the newer bumpers.

But any gunk inside the newer rams might cause them to seize up so I would probably replace the bumpers on the newer style (piece piece rams) with the small OD style bumpers. Since they don't seal on the OD of the bumpers they should work fine (it seals on the center oring).
______________

I haven't tested the larger urethane seals other than checking dimensions but I did send some to Washington Reign (Shane) to take a look at with his last batch of parts. At the time I thought they were Automag or AA reg seals which it turns out they aren't.

Hopefully Shane he can add his thoughts on whether they will work as replacements for the black seal.

Hope this helps, the larger urethane seals should be on the site today or tomorrow, but keep in mind they haven't been tested with air.

Other important dimensions are the inside diameter of the body of both rams (older 3 piece and newer 2 piece) which are both .375 inner diameter.

And the Shaft Outer diameters. Older shaft outer diameters (Brass 3 piece body) are
.125 and newer (2 piece bodies) are .135.

Hope this helps guys.

I also recorded a video heating the rams for disassembly and pulling the parts out.
-Dan
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Differences (just from inspecting not from use):

Older style ram:
3 piece body includes:
•Back male to male nipple, for shaft to pass though.
•Body, has wall .335 inches forward from the back which the black seal sits against. Threaded for 6x40 barb.
•Front, screws into body, threaded for 6x40 barb.

Shaft collar takes two orings, oring are the same size on both newer and older. Shaft is .125 inch OD.
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Re: Autococker

Post by THE JEW (RaVeN) »

Pressfit an Angel feedneck into an Autococker:
http://www.intimidatorowners.com/forums ... hp?t=12941
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Re: Autococker

Post by THE JEW (RaVeN) »

Some electro frame history:

Ok, to the original question:

The different frames available are the Eblade (aka E1), WorrBlade, E2, WorrFrame SF, Raceframe, and the Trilogy SF Frame (which is different from the WorrFrame SF).

The Eblade was the first. It gives you a reflexive eye and and a nice LED display. This is discontinued, but commonly available used for around $200 (or a bit less). They are prone to bouncing. The trigger return is magnetic (trigger in front to attract the trigger forward, giving a nice snappy feel). The eblade has adjustments for all of the timing, filters, etc. It uses a reflexive eye, but the eye is adjustable so it will work with any paint. This will work just as well as a breakbeam eye, don't listen to too much hype. The Eblade uses Ego grips, but you need to dremel/cut the grips to make room for the the sear solenoid if you decide to replace the grips. There is a solenoid in the grip frame that's used to trip the sear, and another one on the front block that replaces the 3-way.

The WorrBlade is basically an E1 with a slightly larger trigger area and a built in rail. A WorrBlade with a ZeroB board comes stock on the Karnivore. The 04 Superstocks came with these frames.

(Sidenote: a ZeroB board is available that will fit into the E1 and Worrblade that will give you a better trigger filter to avoid bounces, a LCD display, better battery life, and a some modes if you have at least version 1.1 of the board. A few of the timing adjustments are finer in the ZeroB, and it has an option to use Ego BB eyes. It also adds a training mode [back block cycles, but the hammer is never released to save air when practing without paint] and ROF display).

The E2 was an updated E1. It had a different trigger, and comes stock with a board that is virtually identical to the ZeroB. It also has a fully enclosed front solenoid.

The Raceframes use a microswitch, and are available with either single or double triggers. They are old, but went through a lot of revisions. I'm not sure if they are still available, but I suspect they are not. They used to be about $400-$450 new, and use 45 grips.

The WorrFrame (aka WorrFrame SF) is an eblade clone that has no adjustable settings, and uses a membrane pad for an on/off switch and to disable the eyes (eyes are controlled with the same button as the on/off). It does have an auto eye-off, but there are no timing adjustments or eye sensitivity adjustments. Autococker owners are tinkerers for the most part, so these aren't to popular due to the lack of adjustment. They are available new for $200-$300 (depending on the store). This is the same frame that comes stock on the Superstock 05 and the Black Magic SF. It includes semi, 3-shot burst, and NXL full auto (adjusted with a jumper inside the frame). I think there may also be a 3-shot burst. Personally, I like the trigger on these, but the membrane pads have a reputation for breaking, and I don't like things that aren't adjustable.

The Trilogy SF's (Trilogy Competition SF and Trilogy Pro SF) use there own type of frame. This uses a single solenoid to pull the 3-way rod, and uses a spring to link the 3-way rod to the sear. These have a semi-auto (18bps cap), ramping (50% ROF increase), three shot burst ramp (I believe this is basically PSP, but I'd have to reinstall my frame and play with it to be sure), and NXL full auto. The only interface is an on/off switch on the frame and a single multicolor LED light. These are basically a "cheap to manufacture" frame for the entry level autocockers. They use a microswitch and a spring to return the trigger. I found that stock, the trigger is way to long and that the spring is too heavy, but tht can be fixed with a little tinkering and a trip to a hardware store. I also had two Trilogy SF frames die on me (Broke, replaced for free, broke again, replaced the Trilogy SF frame with a WorrFrame of a BM SF). These rely on gas being run into the solenoid (inside the grip frame) from the LPR. The grip panels are non-standard, hard plastic. No built in rail. These are the only current production autococker frames that use breakbeam eyes by default. The eyes on the Trilogy SF's are mounted in the center of the chamber (almost all BB eyes are mounted at the bottom of hte chamber), so that they will detect a ball when it's half way into the breach. Unless you are using a fast force feed hopper, this will chop. I've chopped one-balling over a chronograph with a Z-boarded Egg2 using one of these frames.

System X also made an E1 clone that added a full auto mode. PBX ran a few prototypes of a frame that used a timmy trigger, but it was a VERY limited run (something like 10 frames). A few people have modded DMC UL frames onto cockers, but it's a lot of work and requires an MQ valve, cutting down the board, etc. Uprising rames aren't commonly available, but work like the the Trilogy SF frames.

There was one other company in the late 90s that did customer electronic cockers, and they relied on a box fitted between the bottom of the frame and the bottomline adapter that held the electronics, along with a big set of solenoid(s) on the front block. Those weren't sold as add-on frames, but were custom additions for cockers back before the eblades and raceframes came out. People had to ship there guns to the manufacturer to have them converted.

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php? ... st38632871

There are two SF frames, one IS the worrframe.

One is the WorrFrame SF, which comes on the Black Magic SF, 05 Superstock, and was sold seperately by WGP for a while. This frame is basically an eblade clone with no screen, no adjustments, a membrane pad instead of buttons, but a cool auto eyes off feature and a nice trigger. These also have a nice built in rail.

The Trilogy SF guns also have an electronic frame, which was frequently refered to as a the "Trilogy SF Frame". It's basically a copy of the uprising frame. It uses a single solenoid to activate the sear, and uses a spring to connect the sear to the 3-way rod so that it all activates at once. The only way to get one of these is to buy an SF trilogy. They use breakbeam eyes, have no screen or adjustments, use regular push buttons, a two color LED, a couple ramping modes, and requires a hose from the LPR output to run into the solenoid in the frame (thanks to a T-fitting).

The WorrBlade is a WGP copy of the E1, with a rail added, which was used on the Karni and some of the older superstocks, along with being sold seperately. These actually came with Eclipse boards.

http://www.techpb.com/forum/topic/19478 ... -to-an-e1/
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Re: Autococker

Post by THE JEW (RaVeN) »

Trick to seal leaky cupseals:

The valve leak could be a few things. Did you also sand/fix the nick on the cup seal itself? It won't seal unless the nick on the cup seal is also taken off. When you sanded the lip on the valve, did you sand the entire lip evenly or just the nicks portion of the lip? You have to sand the entire lip evenly if you want it to seal, the same goes for the cup seal. However, a valve oring is likely because they are easy to nick while removing/installing the valve.

If you sanded everything evenly and it's no an oring, here's a trick that might help; take the HPR off and attach a high pressure tank directly to the valve. The added pressure forcefully pushes the valve shut and helps create a good sealing surface. If it doesn't leak when you attach the tank, leave it hooked up to the HP air for a few hours or even overnight. Add the HPR back on the gun and it should seal back up without a leak.

If all that doesn't work, don't waste your money on a stock valve unless you can find one for like $10. Palmers makes an amazing valve for the Trilogy called the LT valve. It's one of the few valves that are worth the money for cockers. It opens way easier than other valves -> a lighter hammer spring -> less LPR pressure to cock the gun -> less recoil.

That slide frame is a milled version of a WGP slide frame. It isn't really that bad, it just sounded like you need a thicker trigger plate. Try to find an AKA or chromed KAPP trigger plate. Both are very thick, with the KAPP being a tad bit thicker than the AKA. But no matter what, get the duct tape out of the frame and clean the residue off the inside..


http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/2858421-post2.html
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Re: Autococker

Post by THE JEW (RaVeN) »

Cool reverse build.

http://customcockers.com/forum/showthre ... 4-Prostock


Important bit.

Been a while since I've updated this build...... So far we have the reverser section done. Mini'd the front end about 3/8" and also midget'd. Trigger frame modified to clear 3-way collar, side body slots enlarged to clear ram, also did the other side just in case I decide to run dual rams and to keep everything flowing the same. Ram is a compilation of two rams. Next on the agenda is to do a custom half/mid block cut on it, still thinking that one through. Also going to diet the front block up and do some 3-way barb clearancing on the front block and body.
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Re: Autococker

Post by THE JEW (RaVeN) »

How to replace your opti sensor with a microswitch:

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=3921915

Eblade\Tadao Yakuza\equivalent board microswitch conversion:

I know a lot of you tinkerers out there like the microswich over the optical one for various reasons.. Some might just prefer the microswitch, others "need one" to use it in a specific frame (like the FBM Fierce frames) simply to avoid having to modify the trigger to activate the optical switch. Well, whatever your reasons might be for wanting to convert. Here's how you do it. The great thing is that this is actually VERY easy to do as long as you have a few basic things availible to you. You will need:

Soldering iron\station
Solder
"Helping hands"
Some wire
A Microswitch of your choice (3 pin)


The microswitch:
First of all, cut the middle pin of your microswitch. This is simply because we don't need it for anything on these boards, then solder a wire to each of the remaining pins. I would suggest you put heatshrink over the connections after soldering to keep everything neat,tidy and dry.


Removing the optical-switch & Soldering the microswitch into the board:
Then you desolder the optical switch. Once that's gone, simply solder the wires from the microswitch onto these connection-points on your board. For my FBM Frame, I soldered the wires onto the underside of the board, due to the space needed for the actual microswitch.






Voilla you're done!
Feel all good about yourself for making this work.. *insert MacGyver themesong here*
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Re: Autococker

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