Co2 VS HPA

[THE JEW (RaVeN)]

Does anyone in our group have a Ninja 68/3000psi adjustable setup? I'm going to be running some efficiency tests and this would help out. I'd rather go through a full 3000psi and test paint rather than a full 4500psi and test paint. It's just cheaper. I need the Ninja to be adjustable because I'll want to set it to 450psi output rather than the standard 650-850psi.

[THE JEW (RaVeN)]

Posted for general info. Just go buy a new reg.

The whole discussion:
Me:
I have a few 3000 PSI regulators on bottles that are going out of hydro. Can I change the high pressure burst disk to the 7.5k and use these regulators on 4500 PSI bottles? Looking over the parts diagram it looks like the internals are all the same.

Rob:

Hypothetically speaking, yes you can. However, we would never recommend doing this. Reason is, if you were to give this bottle to someone to use or fill and they didnt know you put a 4500psi burst disk on a 3000psi reg and the person filling the system sees 7.5k Burst Disk, they may assume its a 4500psi reg and thus filling a 3000psi system with 4500psi of air.
Again, we would never recommend doing this on any air system.


Me:
I do have one more question aside form the burst disk what parts are different between the 4500 and 3000 PSI regulators. It looks like i just got a few set of spare parts that I may be able to use if needed.

Rob:
Nothing, everything is interchangeable. Again, we would not recommend converting a 3000psi reg to a 4500psi reg or vice versa, nor would we ever warranty a Ninja regulator that has been altered this way.

He never said I could do what I wanted to do by just switching the burst disks and also made it clear that they do not recommend doing it, ever.

http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/2406690-post11.html

[THE JEW (RaVeN)]

When it comes to Co2, on a 75* day where your not shooting full auto and icing the tank, you can expect about 50 shots per oz of Co2.

With HPA, the general rule is 10 shots per CI at 3000psi and 15 shots per CI at 4500psi.

http://www.a5og.net/632971-post4.html

[THE JEW (RaVeN)]

Usual psi for CO2 tank?

Room temperature and pressure? Around 850psi.

However, as ambient conditions change, so will the pressure in the tank.

http://www.pbreview.com/forums/showpost ... ostcount=2

HPA in CO2? Not advised, but possible.

Shoebag,

Years ago, before fibre wrapped high pressure air tanks became available, some people were using compressed air in CO2 tanks. With no true air systems being available, what other option was available? Why weren't they just using CO2? The simple answer to that one was legal restrictions.

In the UK until quite recently (1997) CO2 powered guns were illegal. CO2 powered guns were described as "firing a noxious gas or liquid" - they were basically treated the same CS sprays and the like! Now the fact that the CO2 was the propellant, and not the projectile, and that CO2 is not noxious par se (otherwise all oxygen breathing creatures who exhale CO2 should be classified as controlled weapons.....) seemed to escape the best legal minds in Britain for a long time. The law is an ***, indeed.

Funnily enough, paintballers generally ignored all this and used CO2 anyway. However, in Scotland, this law WAS applied to Paintballers very strictly, leading to a number of field closures and any number of markers being confiscated. This lead to the use of compressed air in Scotland long before HPA systems became the norm. This would have been round about 1990. Suffice to say that there were no fibre wrapped tanks available to the paintball industry then. It was not uncommon at this time for CO2 bottles to be filled with LOW pressure air. Most older CO2 bottles will show a working air pressure of 1800psi, as do some of the newer ones (many of the newer ones just show the test or burst pressure).

Obviously, we now have bottles rated to 3000, 4500 and 5000psi fill pressure, which give a lot more shots for the same volume, so there really is no need to try filling a CO2 bottle with low pressure air - there's just no point. The fact was, it was only being done out of necessity, and for no other reason. However, it remains true, that if you fill a bottle with compressed gas to a pressure at or below the working pressure it is safe to do (but if you are using compressed air, you should be getting the bottle hydro tested, which is too expensive a process for CO2 bottles if you ask me).

These days, I would say stick to CO2 in CO2 bottles, and air for HPA systems.

By the way, as far as filling was concerned, they just used a standard bottle thread to hose adapter attached direct to the compressors hose, so that was never an issue.

http://www.pbreview.com/forums/showpost ... ostcount=8


FAQ:

Bottle Volumes:

Bottle Volume
size (cu in)
(oz)

3.5 9.0
7.0 18.0
12.0 31.0
20.0 51.0

http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technic ... mics.shtml

ie. for a Nelson
13/300 is 150-200 shots

so worst case scenario calc
5oz CO2 = 13ci = 150 shots @ 3000psi thus ~ 75 @ 2000 psi
9oz CO2 = 23ci = 265 shots @ 3000psi thus ~ 132 @ 2000 psi
12oz CO2 =31ci = 358 shots @ 3000psi thus ~ 178 @ 2000 psi

2500 burst disk on a 3000 burst disc model recommended and a cap of ~1800psi working fill. Not sure if burst discs are rated by working pressure or an impact-style pressure.

[THE JEW (RaVeN)]

Modifying a regulator to change pressure output. Done via Belleville springs aka shims or rings:

( ))) (( ||* )) () (( )) ( <--- this end is the output end
Note that these || shims are much thinner than the () type washers and are
perfectly flat. That gave me 1900 psi. I actually have my top screwed in all the
way and not backed out much.

GD.....this is the exact quote from the guy "Rsterne" from the Canadian Forum.
It took me a couple of minutes to find that post. Here it is....
***
According to my notes (horribly scribbled and not complete) I found the
following combinations in my JDS regulator.... Please note that my 1600 psi
regulator had a 0.005" shim which is labelled "S".... In one combination, I used
a 0.032" washer, which is labelled "W":
1000 psi: S)()(())(())( .... 12 washers, 1 shim, arranged - S 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 1
1300 psi: S)))(())(())(( .... 13 washers, 1 shim, arranged - S 3 2 2 2 2 2
1400 psi: )(())()(())(( .... 13 washers, no shim, arranged - 1 2 2 1 1 2 2 2 (JDS
Airman setup according to email)
1500 psi: SS)))(())(())(( .... 13 washers, 2 shims, arranged - S S 3 2 2 2 2 2
1600 psi: S)())(())(())( .... 13 washers, 1 shim, arranged - S 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 1 (my
stock JDS Airman setup)
over 2000 psi: WS)))(())(())(( .... 13 washers, 1 shim, 1 - 0.032" washer,
arranged - W S 3 2 2 2 2 2
I don't know what the pressure was on the last arrangement, only that it was
over 2000 psi. It would appear that by using the 3 2 2 2 2 configuration, plus a
shim of varying thickness, you can achieve pressures from about 1200 psi to
over 2000.... the only caveat is that when the shim is too thick, the stack will
become "coil bound" and the regulator will cease to work.... It looks like it only
takes about 0.003" shim to increase the pressure by 100 psi, so BE CAREFUL...

http://bb.bbboy.net/straferbbmachinegun ... hread=2117

[THE JEW (RaVeN)]

Tour of Ninja's factory:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fTZ3-EESZg#t=29

[THE JEW (RaVeN)]

Short history on CO2 and HPA

http://www.paintballgear.ca/Paintball-B ... ses-Part-1
http://www.paintballgear.ca/Paintball-B ... ses-Part-2

[THE JEW (RaVeN)]

Omega Compressor:

http://www.airgunsofarizona.com/Compressor.html

Similar to the Shoebox, only it's 3 stage. I imagine that makes its "life" per tank fill a bit better.