Small and Cheap HPA compressor

[THE JEW (RaVeN)]

Yeah, my calc was the absolute worst-case scenario. Before we go any further, can your shop compressor do this?

Q: What shop compressor can I use?
A: Almost ANY oil-free shop compressor that puts out at least 85 psi at 1 CFM or more will work fine. The mini-compressor takes very little air and a shop compressor will only kick on a few times. Small shop air compressors are so cheap it didn’t make sense to try and build one into the ShoeBox.

I imagine "yes", but if "no" costs will quickly begin to add up. Especially when Flagswipe gives a free fill on Fridays if you buy a case.


I would also highly recommend a box fan pointed towards the Shoebox. The one vid shows it getting pretty toasty (ie. fire = teh bad).


I could be interested if a minimum of 8 people (including myself) came on board. It really depends on how often we plan to play in the next 2 years. Do we all plan on playing bi-monthly? Then it's worth it financially off the top of my head. If no, then I'd have to crunch some more numbers. I don't think we'd need a second scuba. I'm down every Saturday so I would just fill my tank while I'm doing chores. I have two tanks. Thumps also in town. He has a boatload of tanks that he could start renting out to people (ie. $5 for the day with 1 fill). That cheap rental rate would pay for his tanks and make the transition for the CO2 only people easy.

We could work out a schedule.

ie.
Monday = fill scuba
Tuesday = Thump fills
Saturday = I fill
etc.


I actually like having the CO2 option, though. Is the fill station junked? What's our replacement cost on that? Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater just yet.

[THE JEW (RaVeN)]

Oh, I had found these a while back but forgot about it until now. Anyhoo, we don't need a scuba if we're just filling hpa tanks. Fireman tanks would, potentially, work and are much cheaper:

VIKING CSI ISI 4500 PSI Made 6-99' SCBA Fireman Fire Fighter AIR Tank SUPPLY

They don't have a reg so they output whatever the tank is at. So, you can't use them on your gun directly, but I'm pretty sure you could use them to cascade/store for tank filling.

[[PX]Kal Bob]

My compressor is more then capable lol.
The only thing I need to confirm is that it is Oil Free.
There are a few leaks in the system, but they are minor and are no my list to fix anyway. lol maybe if I do this, I might get it done!

I agree with the fan idea, things work better cooler. hell maybe there is a way to retrofit my old water cooling rig to the pistons, right now it is just gathering dust.

As for the scheduling, filling the small tanks is an option, but a pain in the ass time wise. That is why I liked the cascade Idea, plenty of air the day of.
I have found many tanks on kijiji for 100 or less. The ones out of Hydro are cheaper, and an option for us.

The lack of a reg is fine as the compressor has a built in cut off when the pressure in the storage tank reaches Max. and I imagine that only the tank with the fill station attached would need a reg.

I am not sure if the equipment would every pay for it self, like the co2 tank I think this is more convenience. I my case the bulk tank will be a requirement as the only 2 HPA tanks I can stand are quite small:

http://www.rap4.com/store/paintball/hpa ... tank-empty <-- Might be a bit big, but willing to try it.
http://www.rap4.com/store/paintball/hpa ... tank-empty <-- Perfect size.

I wish they were 4500psi though.
What do most people have? 3000 or 4500?

As for the CO2, yes the main issue rests in the Fill Station. I currently am waiting for the replacement to come into stock:

http://www.paintballgear.ca/product/Nin ... ation.html

The unit runs about 50 bucks plus tax.

It is one of the reasons that I am considering the HPA option:

50 for a new fill station
60 to renew the lease on the tank.
10-20 for a new scale, my is super sketch now lol.

At that rate I am up to a Scuba tank, and if Neb was willing he could use his fill station to tap my tank when his was empty.
This would double our HPA storage. Of course this option requires that the Scuba be in hydro otherwise the cost goes up.

The other issue is that when you have problems with the CO2 fill station, you loose a lot of money out of the tank. it cost 70 dollars to fill it and I am pretty sure I lost a ot this time around.
Of course some of the loss could be related to the cold weather, the Primary tank is way colder then the small tanks it is filling right now. I know thermal issues can effect fills, Jew you might understand that better then I, thoughts?

The most costly part for me will be the Play tank switch over, as I don't think there is much resell ability on used CO2 tanks lol.

[[PX]Kal Bob]

The growing concern I have is the Duty Cycle of this machine. It seams that it breaks down fairly quick.
I pulled this quote from there forums:

The first maintenance was after 70-75 hours of use....

And this is from Tom (Designer)

Orings last anywhere from 75-125 hours.

It seams that rebuilds and replacement of O Rings are common (this is evident throughout the site)

At the usersrate, we would be fixing o'rings every 3 scuba fills..... the price could add up quick at that rate.
At Toms high end (Never Happen lol) it would be 5 tank fills.

Maybe cooling would bring that down or using a computer controlled relay to cycle to machine on and off 1.5 hours on .5 hours off.

However, I really don't like the idea of having to baby this thing ....

[THE JEW (RaVeN)]

Well, a few thoughts here:


1. I wouldn't buy RAP4 stuff (well, I would their "soft" goods). Their "hard" goods are notorious for being finicky, failing, and earning the company the nickname "CR@P4." Ninja's are considered about the best and they're the same price. If you like to gravitate to "word of mouth" recommended products they're your best bet.

2. O-rings are dirt cheap. Find out what sizes you need, buy $5 worth, and you're set for the life of the compressor.

3. What are some of the rebuild issues? Do you have links?

[[PX]Kal Bob]

1) I have heard the same thing, that is why I say away from their custom markers.
I already have 2 5oz rap4 CO2 tank with no issues. Tanks are pretty safe as they have to be Hydro'ed to sell lol.
If you find tanks with the same dimensions elsewhere for less let me know. It is the size I need not the vendor.

http://www.ninjapaintball.com/productDe ... uctID_E_69 <-- looks pretty similar to the 13ci from rap4 same price to.

2) If we can find them bulk that would be great.

3) I think is mainly the O-Rings. The kit from Shoebox includes all o-rings and delrin spacers. So I am guessing those are what need the most fixing.
I will hunt around the forums to see what I can find.

[THE JEW (RaVeN)]

Sorry, was editing in the Ninja while you replied.

EDIT:

If CO2 o-rings are any indicator, they're pretty cheap.

http://www.ansgear.com/100_Pack_CO2_Tan ... kur100.htm

100 orings for $9.

[THE JEW (RaVeN)]

My compressor is more then capable lol.
The only thing I need to confirm is that it is Oil Free.
There are a few leaks in the system, but they are minor and are no my list to fix anyway. lol maybe if I do this, I might get it done!
Yeah, oil is bad. Very bad. That would certainly need to be fixed/checked.

I agree with the fan idea, things work better cooler. hell maybe there is a way to retrofit my old water cooling rig to the pistons, right now it is just gathering dust.
Yeah, I've also got spare equipment if we wanted to water cool. However, a box fan meets the KISS theory wonderfully.

As for the scheduling, filling the small tanks is an option, but a pain in the ass time wise. That is why I liked the cascade Idea, plenty of air the day of.
I have found many tanks on kijiji for 100 or less. The ones out of Hydro are cheaper, and an option for us.
Fair enough. I'd still be willing to come down on the Saturday to fill my 2 tanks. I'd like 4500psi in them and that way I wouldn't be taking away from the scuba storage the day of our match.

The lack of a reg is fine as the compressor has a built in cut off when the pressure in the storage tank reaches Max. and I imagine that only the tank with the fill station attached would need a reg.
Right, Neb's fill kit is really all we need. I made the reg comment in case someone had the idea of using a fireman's tank as an actual gun tank.

I am not sure if the equipment would every pay for it self, like the co2 tank I think this is more convenience. I my case the bulk tank will be a requirement as the only 2 HPA tanks I can stand are quite small:
Sorry, the hpa or co2 equipment? The Shoebox would likely pay for itself if we ever sold it. If we just kept running it that we'd eventually break even.

http://www.rap4.com/store/paintball/hpa ... tank-empty <-- Might be a bit big, but willing to try it.
http://www.rap4.com/store/paintball/hpa ... tank-empty <-- Perfect size.

I wish they were 4500psi though.
I haven't seen any 4500ps tanks under 45ci.
What do most people have? 3000 or 4500?
I run two 4500psi tanks. Thump has at least five 3000psi tanks at my last count.

As for the CO2, yes the main issue rests in the Fill Station. I currently am waiting for the replacement to come into stock:

http://www.paintballgear.ca/product/Nin ... ation.html

The unit runs about 50 bucks plus tax.

It is one of the reasons that I am considering the HPA option:

50 for a new fill station
60 to renew the lease on the tank.
10-20 for a new scale, my is super sketch now lol.

At that rate I am up to a Scuba tank, and if Neb was willing he could use his fill station to tap my tank when his was empty.
This would double our HPA storage. Of course this option requires that the Scuba be in hydro otherwise the cost goes up.
If we get the Shoebox, we'd never need a hydro again.

The other issue is that when you have problems with the CO2 fill station, you loose a lot of money out of the tank. it cost 70 dollars to fill it and I am pretty sure I lost a ot this time around.
Of course some of the loss could be related to the cold weather, the Primary tank is way colder then the small tanks it is filling right now. I know thermal issues can effect fills, Jew you might understand that better then I, thoughts?
Unless CO2 is syphon'd and you run something like a Mega-Z/older Tippmann/semi from the late 80's to 90's, you'll experience an efficiency loss. Paragon experienced this in March and had to borrow my HPA tank it was so bad. When you fill a tank, I believe it's an all liquid transfer. Something like 30% of the rated volume is liquid. Could be wrong on that. It's just what I seem to remember.

The most costly part for me will be the Play tank switch over, as I don't think there is much resell ability on used CO2 tanks lol.
What threading and what psi is it rated to? If you own the tank, replace the CO2 valve with an HPA valve. Second HPA storage tank right there.

My answers in red.

[[PX]Kal Bob]

I am hunting for the O-Ring type found this from Tom:

The ones at the hardware store will not work. The orings are special cast urethane and Viton. Even though they may look the same believe me they are not.

Here is the O-ring List, it seams many are non standard

http://www.shoeboxcompressor.com/Spare- ... u.tpl.html 5 dollar 6 pack

http://www.shoeboxcompressor.com/Spare- ... u.tpl.html 5 dollar 6 pack

http://www.shoeboxcompressor.com/Spare- ... u.tpl.html 2 dollar 6 pack

http://www.shoeboxcompressor.com/Spare- ... u.tpl.html 4 dollar 6 pack

http://www.shoeboxcompressor.com/Spare- ... u.tpl.html 4 dollar 6 pack


Maint Kit:

http://www.shoeboxcompressor.com/Spare- ... u.tpl.html 25 dollars

6 pcs upper cylinder urethane piston o-rings (found on either side of part #6)
6 pcs upper cylinder back check o-ring (goes on part#3)
6 pcs lower cylinder urethane piston o-rings (found on either side of part#16)
6 pcs lower cylinder back check o-ring (goes on part#12)
6 pcs black outer cylinder o-ring (goes on part#4)
1 pc upper cylinder small delrin spacer part#6
1 pc upper cylinder large delrin spacer part#7
1 pc lower cylinder small delrin spacer part#16
1 pc lower cylinder large delrin spacer part#17

[[PX]Kal Bob]

Point 3:

Fair enough. I'd still be willing to come down on the Saturday to fill my 2 tanks. I'd like 4500psi in them and that way I wouldn't be taking away from the scuba storage the day of our match.

We have to choose a 4500psi or 3000psi shoebox, they are not user convertible.

There is a 200 valve that lets you do both.....
Tom:

One of our Canadian customers Walter found a 3k valve that he puts on the output of his 4.5k ShoeBox and he reports that it works great.
Its a Chemiquip PLV-255S valve which regulates the output pressure to 3000 psi. You can search for it on the net.

Point 5:

Sorry, the hpa or co2 equipment? The Shoebox would likely pay for itself if we ever sold it. If we just kept running it that we'd eventually break even.

HPA, I just think it would take along time lol

Point 6:

I wish they were 4500psi though.
I haven't seen any 4500ps tanks under 45ci.
What do most people have? 3000 or 4500?
I run two 4500psi tanks. Thump has at least five 3000psi tanks at my last count.

Dumb question, what is the difference? I have also heard of 6000psi

Last Point:
[url]What threading and what psi is it rated to? If you own the tank, replace the CO2 valve with an HPA valve. Second HPA storage tank right there.[/url]

The tank is a rental

[THE JEW (RaVeN)]

Point 3:

Fair enough. I'd still be willing to come down on the Saturday to fill my 2 tanks. I'd like 4500psi in them and that way I wouldn't be taking away from the scuba storage the day of our match.

We have to choose a 4500psi or 3000psi shoebox, they are not user convertible.

There is a 200 valve that lets you do both.....
Tom:

One of our Canadian customers Walter found a 3k valve that he puts on the output of his 4.5k ShoeBox and he reports that it works great.
Its a Chemiquip PLV-255S valve which regulates the output pressure to 3000 psi. You can search for it on the net.

4500psi with timer or shut off valves seems the best bang for buck.
Timer:
We take a weekend and see how long it takes to fill. Then set timer accordingly.

Shut off valves seem fairly easy.
Relay needed:
http://www.shoeboxcompressor.com/forum/ ... off-switch

How to wire it up:
http://www.shoeboxcompressor.com/forum/ ... =1#post880

Again, as long as only a few qualified people run it and we know our time, we'd just set it a bit lower and run the 4500psi version.



Point 5:

Sorry, the hpa or co2 equipment? The Shoebox would likely pay for itself if we ever sold it. If we just kept running it that we'd eventually break even.

HPA, I just think it would take along time lol

How long you wanna play

Point 6:

I wish they were 4500psi though.
I haven't seen any 4500ps tanks under 45ci.
What do most people have? 3000 or 4500?
I run two 4500psi tanks. Thump has at least five 3000psi tanks at my last count.

Dumb question, what is the difference? I have also heard of 6000psi
One has a tank and reg rated to 3000psi, the other has a tank and reg rated to 4500psi. 5000psi was popular a while back, but the pumps were too much money. Thus, you could only fill to 4500psi anyways. So people just made 4500psi the max.


Last Point:
[url]What threading and what psi is it rated to? If you own the tank, replace the CO2 valve with an HPA valve. Second HPA storage tank right there.[/url]

The tank is a rental
Scuba or fireman tank time then.

[THE JEW (RaVeN)]

Chemiquip PLV-255S Stainless Steel 1/4" NPT $149.23

http://www.bucksales.com/Principals/Che ... miting.htm

First link I found.

[[PX]Kal Bob]

Found that one as well Tax and shipping about 200 dollars.

[THE JEW (RaVeN)]

Pressure switch ideas:
http://www.shoeboxcompressor.com/forum/ ... off-Switch

McMaster Carr has one for $75

Code: Select all

ActuationRange, psi   DeactuationRange, psi   Maximum Pressure, psi   Pipe Size   Ht.       Each   Ht.       Each

180-3,000   50-400   8,000   1/4"   2 7/8"   3427K3   67.43   3"   3427K6   74.29

[[PX]Kal Bob]

lol, this deal is getting more expensive all the time!
So all in all add 120 dollars for dual mode.


With the 3000psi vs 4500psi question I meant what is the benefit? more shots? free hookers and blow?