Empire Axe

[THE JEW (RaVeN)]

How to install the white o-ring on the eigenbolt:

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php? ... st76734418

[THE JEW (RaVeN)]

Ultimate o-ring thread:

Quick overview of orings for those that might not know:
Buna N - is almost always the stock material used in most locations. Occasionally urethane is used as well. It is a good all around material.

Viton (FKM) - is a little more expensive, but has better abrasion resistance than buna and a better compression set (meaning it is perfect for a bumper).

Urethane - is significantly more expensive than viton or buna, but excels in dynamic (moving) applications due to it's superior abrasion resistance and low coefficient of friction. It is poorly suited as a bumper due to it's poor compression set.

Other Materials - such as HNBR are not really beneficial over buna, but tend to cost more. I didn't test these.

X-Rings - "O" or "X" simply refers to the cross-section profile of the seal. If you cut the ring and looked at it from the side, this would be the shape.

Durometer - is the hardness of the material. It is important because assuming the same material and seat is used, a lower durometer will have a lower breakaway friction (needed to get it moving). Too soft and you have issues with elongation, extrusion and it will raise the running friction... Long story, but 70 durometer seems to be the standard.


Testing on the Boss Team Series and V2
Bolt:
-Boss Team Series Orings: From what I can tell, these are nothing more than urethane orings dyed for branding. They are very good quality and Boss has taken the trouble out of sourcing them. That said, the team series orings (and urethane) proved to have identical results. Impressively, both allowed me to run about ~5psi lower on my reg to achieve the same velocity as the stock buna orings. The team series orings appear to be -017 (x2 if you use the larger rear bolt oring) and -015.

-017 urethane 70 durometer: When swapping from the boss team series orings I saw no difference. When swapping from buna, I was able to run lower psi. I highly recommend sticking to this size on the bolt front position. I saw inconsistency and even poor cycling when I switched.

-017 viton x-ring(s) 75 durometer: These didn't work particularly well on the boss bolt. I had to raise the pressure over the stock buna. I suspect the higher durometer didn't play well with the light weight of the bolt and the low pressure settings I was running. NOT recommended on the boss bolt.

-016 urethane 70 durometer: I tried this in the front and back bolt locations. I found it suitable for the rear position, but on the front it gave inconsistent chrono readings. I still find that -015 works better on the rear position.

-015 urethane 70 durometer: This is the equivalent if running the small boss team series oring. As expected, it worked very well. My suggestion is -017 front and -015 rear.

Summary: All said, the boss team series and/or urethane seemed to work best and IMO they're the exact same thing.

Bumper:
-Boss Team Series: Oddly enough the oring Boss provides for this position is quite hard. It also appears to be a -015 urethane 90 durometer. If you read the oring overview, urethane is a poor material selection due to it's inferior compression set. (To you owners, pull this oring and you'll see it looks like an oval... that's the poor compression set in work!)

-Boss V2 Stock: Appears to be an un-dyed -015 urethane oring.

-015 viton 75 durometer: I have put these through the ringer. They are softer, and thus in theory, should absorb more shock AND they seem to have great longevity in this location.

Summary: All said, an -015 75 durometer viton oring is my recommendation in this location.



Testing on the Shocktech
-017 urethane 70 durometer: Not surprisingly, again, the -017 in the front position is almost always a must have. In the rear position you can run the -017 or smaller.

-017 viton x-ring(s) 75 durometer: While the stock bolt seemed to tolerate the viton x-rings quite well, the shocktech didn't seem to like them. Without putting calipers on them, the shocktech oring grooves seem slightly narrower than stock. I suggest passing on the x-rings.

-016 urethane 70 durometer: Identical to stock, the slightly smaller -016 seemed to be the best in the rear bolt position. The ID of this bolt fits the bolt guide more loosely, and the reduced friction of this oring combo makes for lower pressure operation. The venturi seems to make a quieter shot too.

-015 urethane 70 durometer: This thing almost didn't clear the side of the oring seat. I suggest staying away.

Summary: Similar to stock, I suggest 70 durometer urethane as a -017 for the front bolt position and a -016 for the rear.



Testing on the Tech T Gold Bolt
-017 urethane 70 durometer:

-017 viton x-ring(s) 75 durometer:

-016 urethane 70 durometer:

-015 urethane 70 durometer:

Summary:


Testing on the Lurker Eigenbolt
Bolt:
-017 urethane 70 durometer: Worked consistently well. In every instance, where there was no additional friction from the bolt guide or spacer this proved to be a reliable choice.

-017 viton x-ring 75 durometer: This was a terrible set-up. Typically x-rings have lower friction, but I suppose in lower pressure applications the additional squeeze on these made them cycle poorly. So bad, in fact, that half the time the bolt wouldn't fully cycle and when it did it would only shoot 140-160fps.

-016 urethane 70 durometer: In my testing I actually found this to be the most consistent (fps grouping) and best settings (lowest dwell and psi) when it worked. It actually worked quite well in all but one of the 4 axes it was tested in and luckily the one it didn't work in belongs to a friend. This is what I run on my main gun.

-015 urethane 70 durometer: For some reason the gun wouldn't even cycle correctly with this oring. I am not sure it was even sealing. It worked for a few shots when I first installed it, but then stopped cycling correctly. I suspect the casting flash rubbed off and it stopped making a seal after that.

Summary: For the bolt, -016 yielded the best results for me, however, if you only want to buy one size, then go with -017 urethane.

Spacer:
-016 urethane 70 durometer: In applications where the Lurker included -016 fits inside the bolt (ID) this works very well. In almost every instance I personally had to run an -015. I suspect both my bolts came from the same lot and batch and have a similar fit.

-015 urethane 70 durometer: In every case I tested, this worked best for me. The reduced hardness of the oring seemed to let the bolt slide off easier, yet retained seal fidelity. This is my suggestion.

-015 urethane 90 durometer (tank oring): This is the suggestion Lurker gives if the -016 binds. Overall it seemed to work well, but the harder seal seemed to take a little more force to break loose. The main difference I saw in this and the 70 durometer was a little better velocity grouping in a string.

Summary: Unfortunately, you'll have to kind of hand-fit this one. I'd say go ahead and order 70 durometer urethane in both -015 and -016 sizes.

I have also had the privilege of testing a new prototype spacer that has been redesigned to prevent slippage AND makes for an easier installation. It is a 2-piece clamshell design. There were some small tweaks made for production, but -015 70 durometer urethane, -015 90 durometer urethane (tank oring), and -013 (any material) seemed to work amazingly. This fixed almost all the complaints people have with the Lurker bolt system. It is easy to install, doesn't slip, is easy to remove and isn't sensitive to lube getting under it (I know... I lubed under it on purpose).



Color coding urethane orings: I will post up a how to, specifically for paintball, but urethane is commonly dyed in skating: http://www.instructables.com/id/How-...-and-bushings/






This Thread will take a while for me to finish, but I am going to summarize my experiences with each of these bolts. I own 2 axes and tech 2 more so these tests have been conducted over 4 axes.


Testing on the Stock Bolt
-017 urethane 70 durometer: Not really any surprise here, but the only size I could get to work consistently was a -017 in the front position. It can be used in the rear position as well, but I had better results running a smaller bolt rear oring.

-017 viton x-ring(s) 75 durometer: To my amazement (due to previous failures) this actually worked decently well. Right after initial installation it seemed tighter and I had to raise reg pressure about ~3psi or so, but as the rings broke in, not even 500rounds later, the psi started coming back down. After a case or so these were about 8psi or so lower than the original tuned stock bolt. When I ran a super slick lube like MacDev Militia v2 it got even better. Oddly, this was one of the only applications where they seemed to work right. The consistency was nice and the pressure was lowered.

-016 urethane 70 durometer: This can easily be run in the rear location. In fact, in some applications it appeared significantly more consistent than the -015 in the rear position and the psi stayed almost the same.

-015 urethane 70 durometer: The -015 in the rear position was a bit confusing to me. It seemed to work very well as the pressure was able to drop (vs a -017), but the velocity groupings got wider. I'm not sure why this happened, but I speculate there was some blowby or something. It made only a marginal difference over the performance over the -016.

Summary: For the stock bolt you have more room to tinker... The x-rings seemed to work decently in this scenario, but my strongest recommendation is a -017 in the front bolt position and a -016 in the rear bolt position, both 70 durometer urethane.


Bolt Guide Orings
Boss team series bolt guide orings: Again, these appear to be dyed urethane oring. They work fantastic and seem to solve many issues related to friction such as inconsistency and poor cycling. The main thing I've noticed is that these almost always allow a lower dwell setting.

1.5mm x 11mm (metric) urethane 70 durometer: I am working to source these cheaply for the community, but IMO these should be the stock oring material or should be provided with any delrin aftermarket bolt. The Lurker eigenbolt seemed to gain the most from these, but across the board these are far superior to stock buna with all bolts and configurations.

Summary: Boss or urethane should absolutely be used in this position.


Bolt guide bumper
-012 viton 75 durometer: I believe this should have been the stock offering in this position. Since the edge of the bolt hits in the center of this oring they deform fairly quickly. Buna does fine, but can cause stick as the bolt begins to cut into this ring. Most people tend to neglect this, but I recommend it for any bolt system (read any bolt except Lurker) that retains a ring in this location. Stock size is actually a 1.5mm x 11mm (metric), but since this isn't a dynamic seal the -012 works just as well, is cheaper and more available.

Summary: For peak longevity, run a -012 viton 75 durometer in this location.


Poppet Oring
Stock: The oring installed on all 4 poppets (I pulled off to polish them) sized in at -013, however it is a 90 durometer urethane.

-013 urethane 70 durometer: This actually seems to be the most similar to the stock size poppet oring removed from all 4 axes whose poppet I polished. This is essentially just running a softer version of the stock oring. I didn't notice much if any difference, however, some bolt guides are looser than others, so I am keeping some around as spares/ stock replacement.

-012 urethane 70 durometer: Under-sizing this oring proved EXTREMELY effective, more so than polishing the poppet. With a smaller oring there is less friction and the poppet itself becomes more responsive to the pressure shift in the cycle. In my experience (across 4 axes) this worked every time and lead to reductions between 10psi and ALMOST 25psi in one axe. The deviation in the bolt guide itself are why I believe the results vary so much. I highly recommend trying this... the seal in this location isn't all that critical either so it's highly likely you'll get the benefits too.


-013 buna xring 70 durometer: On 3 of the 4 axes I tune this is the right size. The only difference I saw in this and the softer urethane rings is that these seem to tighten up the velocity. Making a claim like that is hard because there's so many variables, but notionally it seems to work.

-012 buna xring 70 durometer: On the tight fitting poppet, this seems to fit nice without being overly snug. After 2 cases this worked perfectly on my main gun. I am getting ±3-4fps with quality paint (underbored with a lurker bolt). This is what I'll be running for a while.

-011 urethane 70 durometer: Even in my tight bolt guide -011 was too small to seal. You can try it, but I suggest -012.

Summary: I highly suggest trying a -012 70 durometer urethane oring in this location in addition to polishing the poppet.

Zero tools is the cheapest place to buy the quattro seals... They're like $5 for a bag of 100.
__________________

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=3972599

[THE JEW (RaVeN)]

First setup:

NotDads: I'm sorry for your trouble with your Axe. Here is what you should do with a brand new Axe.

1) Lube the poppet o-ring - preferably with Dow 33 type grease not the stock grease (The stock grease will eventually be Dow 33, it just hasn't switched over yet)

2) Lube the bolt guide o-rings on the small area of the bolt guide. When you slide the bolt on if you turn the bolt facing the ground and shake it should not come off the guide. This assures your bolt guide o-rings are ok.

3) Double check screws are tight, especially ball detents on the sides of the gun.

4) Double check your dwell is set at 8ms

Setting pressure/velocity screw - I'm going to contradict some of the info above because it is mis leading. The presssure should be ATLEAST 200psi for starting. Don't set a brand new Axe any lower when you are trying to get it working. A pressure of 200-220 is normal for an Axe. Also the guage is not a precision gauge it is only to give you a rough idea so if the gague needs to go higher than 220psi don't freak out. In mass manufacturing parts can vary, every gun will not be exactly the same. This is true for any consumer product you have used ever.
The Back cap should start between 1/2 to 1 turn out from all the way in. With a good paint to barrel match this should get you near 300fps. Setting the back cap 1.5+ turns out is for aftermarket bolts or if your pressure is too low. Doing this with a stock bolt will give you inconsistent velocity.

These checks should be done on all new Axe's as there is no way of knowing how long they have been on a shelf or if they were loosened up during shipping.

This is the exact way we set up professional players guns on the field and my teams guns for the past 2+ years. If these settings are not working for you contact paintballsolutions.com They will ensure you are satisfied with your product.

J. Ezell - Empire Electronics Engineer/Tech

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php? ... st79013016

[THE JEW (RaVeN)]

Tuning the Lurker bolt:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... ZmZ7u0qhC0

[THE JEW (RaVeN)]

Tuning guide for Lurker bolt:

Set pressure to ~170psi
Lower dwell until the gun seems to cycle poorly, and then add points until it cycles fully and crisply. In the case of any FSDO or inconsistency, incrementally add dwell.
Adjust velocity adjuster out until velocity begins to decrease (1.5 to 2.5 turns out with stock poppet and spring)
Adjust HPR to achieve desired velocity

[THE JEW (RaVeN)]

Lurker Poppet tips

My one caution would be that the o-ring they shipped with (a 2mmx11mm) sits very snugly in the groove, but allows for more compression than stock. I ran it through mine and it seemed to be a nice choice. If anyone has any issues (possibly climate or bolt guide specific, I also have 2x10mm here. It wants to live somewhere between 013 and 014, it seems.

I think that black bolt guides tend to fit more snugly. I am not sure why that may be, but it just seems they're the only ones that needed -012 poppet rings in the stock form.

The really great thing to answer the OP is that if you're tight, we can send out the 1 size smaller o-ring in metric, to match your bolt guide. With the normal size seals, it's a full 1/16" jump between sizes.

I have mine at 5 ms dwell, 140 psi, 1.25 out on the back cap, and it seems to be cycling just fine. Black bolt guide, "stock" o-ring seems very tight, but doesn't appear to cause a problem. Can't wait to shoot it...sadly I must wait a few weeks due to work and family.

Darn work and family, always getting in the way.

Stop running so wide on the back cap. Go back to 1.25 turns out and use the pressure and dwell to dial it in. (In that order.)

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=4079660

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-HqgwnYNcg



Lurker Bolt tips

A urethane 015 tank oring has solved the spacer issue through the first tank. Everything is running well. Time to see what swapping an oring here or there will do but currently its working as expected.

What size should the bolt guide orings be? My bolt has play in it so want to replace the orings for a snugger fit.

1.5mm x 11mm is stock, but some people run a single -012 to the bolt guide to add some resistance. I don't really find it necessary.

Axe is now shooting at around 285 FPS at 150 PSI with a dwell of 7. I haven't had a chance to really tune it as there was a line at chrono and I really just wanted to make sure the earlier issues I had were fixed. (either replacing the soft tip thing on the tip of the bolt or lubing the poppet fixed the issues I was having).

One thing I noticed when cleaning it after last weekend is that there is very little resistance between the clamshell and the bolt itself. As in if I set it on a table (backcap down) and lightly lift the bolt spring the bolt will just slide off the spacer. I've read there is supposed to be somewhat of a seal between the spacer and the bolt, and I'm not sure if I'm getting that. I am using an 015 on the spacer because an 016 feels extremely tight.

Am I losing any potential performance gains if the bolt/spacer don't 'seal'? How much resistance should there actually be? Should I just use an 016 for a day and see if it is any 'looser' afterwards?

Input appreciated.

If it's not sealing then you won't be able to pinch paint. If you have access to several -016 orings then try hand fitting them. On buna orings I'm pretty sure it is a +/- .005 tolerance... that's quite a bit.

make sure the bolt has resistance on the bolt tube. it should not be loose.

[THE JEW (RaVeN)]

Lurker bolt orings:

Bolt: -017 70 duro (HNBR or urethane preferred)
Bolt guide: 1.5mm x 11mm 70 duro (urethane preferred)
Spacer front: -016 70 duro (xring preferred or urethane/ HNBR oring)
Poppet: -012/-13 (hand fit) 70 duro (xrings prefered or urethane oring)

Bolt: -017 70 duro urethane or HNBR
Bolt guide: 1.5mm x 11mm urethane OR in certain cases a -012 buna xring may be needed
Clamshell front: -016 70 durometer... I use a buna or viton xring here, but it all depends on fitment. Urethane and HNBR both give different fitment options.
Poppet: -013 buna xring with modified gland floor (teflon tape)

[THE JEW (RaVeN)]

Lurker poppet:

^ He is touching on it. The oring fitment and friction makes a huge difference in meeting your tuning goal. Grab the lurker poppet by the "nose" and insert it backwards into the guide. It should move freely with only a little resistance. I typically use the Teflon method to build up a -013 xring to where I want it and then tune from there.

Yes, build up the gland under the oring/xring. A fairly good gauge is right around a broken in stock oring... It has to seal, but should offer fairly low resistance.

[THE JEW (RaVeN)]

Soft shot tuning:

Ok I've noticed a lot of people go to method in the sticky which is the opposite of this method. Now yes it will improve your marker but a lot more in the efficiency department. This will create the smoothest possible shot AND increase efficiency to around 12-13 pods on a 68/45. I've tuned my friends markers with this methods which they were hesitant to let me do at first however after I did it he was definitely surprised to find it shot better than his old Luxe (4 of us on our team HAD Luxes and now have Axes because they shoot money one is being stubborn because his Luxe has sentimental value... lol) Anyways enough chatter onto the method.

1. Turn your pressure to 180 and turn your back cap ALL the way in. Start at 150-160 with an aftermarket bolt raise/lower slightly if needed. On well know bolt systems such as the Boss or Lurker bolt kits, use the recommended pressure as a starting point and continue with tuning.

2. Go to a chrono.

3. Slowly ease your backcap out in small increments of 1/4 turns while chroning 5-10 shots in between each adjustment

4. Repeat step 3 until your FPS stops going up, every marker is different so never use a set amount of turns because getting YOUR marker set correctly is the most important part of tuning.

5. Adjust pressure to proper chrono speeds.

6. (Optional) Slowly turn your dwell down while firing over a chrono until you see your FPS start to fluctuate in either consistency or just velocity. Once you notice this begin to happen bump your well back up 1MS


Step 6 is purely for efficiency and is probably the most time consuming part of the process but is optional because you've already gained all your shot quality gains and some of your efficiency.

[THE JEW (RaVeN)]

Alternatively, check your o-ring fit to make sure the gun is operating properly. You want the bolt guide o-rings to seal well, so going too loose on them may cause issues.

As for tuning, a good way to think about it is to tune for best poppet response. You do this by setting the PSI at 160-170ish PSI (this is assuming that the o-rings are good and fit properly), then starting with the back cap all the way in, slowly turn it out while shooting over the chrono. Once you reach the point where the velocity stops raising and starts going back down, you've found the best poppet setting for the back cap (which could be different than 1.25 turns out for your specific gun). From that point, you leave the back cap alone and set velocity with the regulator. If doing that you still can't get good velocity, then it's time to check o-rings again and make sure they're properly fitted.

http://www.techpb.com/forum/topic/22744 ... mpire-axe/

[THE JEW (RaVeN)]

Pressure required is based on several o-ring fitments. The poppet lift is what needs to be sweet spotted to get a ridiculously smooth and quiet shot. Stock bolt should be .5-1 turns out. Lurker or Boss 1-1.5 turns out. Anything outside those ranges to sweet spot it means the poppet o-ring is too tight or loose. The dwell being too high will make it louder than it should be. Too low and it'll get inconsistent. So the back cap and dwell are easy to verify they are set right. Pressure can range from sub 130 psi all the way up to 190, on any Axe with reasonable o-ring fitment. I've had mine working well down to 130 psi.

Tuning an Axe:
Step 1: set dwell to stock
Step 2: set pressure to 190 psi
Step 3: sweet spot back cap
Step 4: adjust regulator to field limit
Step 5: lower dwell till just above where it becomes inconsistent and velocity drops
Step 6: enjoy

That makes it reliable and gives it the smoothest shot and reasonable efficiency. I've setup a few dozen Axes now.

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php? ... st84674673

Raising dwell above stock gives you a smoother shot though - and since neither consumption or noise is an issue really, I'd recommend it.

Not too far ofcourse, as that will cause shot to shot inconsistency.

The Axe I tuned with Lurker guts got quieter and smoother the more I turned the dwell down.

[THE JEW (RaVeN)]

Solution to leaking transfer tube:

I had a similar problem when my regulator and the bottom half of the transfer tube started to shake loose. The fix was pretty simple.

I simply took off the grip frame, then took all the screws holding the regulator onto the bottom of the grip frame.

Then loosen off the bottom half of the transfer tube until your regulator comes off. Now inside where the regulator and transfer tube meet, there is an oring. Make sure it's intact. Sometimes it can get damaged if you do a lot of diving and your regulator comes loose causing it to slide backward and deform the oring.

Replace and or lube that oring back up. Now comes the important part. Slide the regulator back onto the grip frame, making sure to keep it and that tiny rail inside lined up properly. Now press the regulator upward so it's tight to the grip frame, then insert the bottom half of the transfer tube into position and screw it in tight! The transfer tube being tight is what pulls the regulator upward to seal that oring properly. A loose fit here will cause a leak.

Once the transfer tube is tightened down, you can put the 4 regulator screws back in to hold it secure. Now lube the small oring on the top half of the air transfer tube and reassemble the gun fully. Your leak should be fine after that.

I find on a lot of axes if the regulator comes loose it will start to put stress on the bottom of the air transfer tube and loosen it off. Most people will just tighten the regulator locking screws which locks the regulator on nice again, but doesn't fix the leak point where the oring is.

This should set you right again.

[THE JEW (RaVeN)]

Distance measurements lined up at the trigger.

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=4255889&page=4

Note that on that image and the one I posted earlier, the "reference" point for the different frames is the trigger.
It's hard to give an exact dimension for the foregrips since they're shaped differently, but these numbers are close:
- Distance the MiniGS VLX frame extends the foregrip compared to stock MiniGS: 1.375 inches
- Distance the bolt-on Mini/Axe foregrip extender extends the foregrip: 1.1 inches
- Distance from stock MiniGS foregrip to stock Axe foregrip: .5 (Axe is further forward) - see this thread
- Distance from the MiniGS VLX frame foregrip to the stock Axe foregrip: -.9 inches (VLX is further forward)
- Distance from the MiniGS VLX frame foregrip to an Axe foregrip with extender: .25 inches (Axe is further forward)

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=4143073

[THE JEW (RaVeN)]

There is a good reason that Kee has sold 50,000 Axes and a new model wasn't released until a month ago, they are great guns. I think a new body, frame, and replacing the stock buna orings with urethane (and using one size smaller oring on the rear of the bolt) will do wonders for ya. It will feel and shoot like an entirely new gun in the best way possible. I'm always going to keep one in my gearbag.

How about Lurker's Paragon? Ryan knows his stuff, that thing is going to be sweet once it's released. I'm really surprised no one has mentioned it yet. It's the only electronic gun I've considered buying since I've gotten my Axe. Check it out.

But if that's not tempting and you decide against keeping the Axe, The Ego11 would get my next vote or the new Impulse.

[THE JEW (RaVeN)]

Violent scythe trigger with threaded trigger pin, nylon stop screw, resistance screw magnet ~1/16" from the frame magnet when the stop screw is bottomed out on the frame, fairly long pull (~4.5mm measured from the stop screw to the frame), Virtue eye board for the slightly heavier-effort switch and the activation point set to the middle of the pull travel. It's my favorite trigger for semi play out of all of my electropneumatic triggers.

Trigger tuning.